There are so few corps out there who willa actually take a newbie and NOT use them as fodder and laugh at them for it, that the chances of a noobie finding a community to join is low as limbo goes.

I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills.

Moving goal posts and Alice in Wonderland logic.

E for effort.

why? ok case in point, i decided to try a new char out an joined a brand new corp, social blah de blah

boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec

make of it as you will, but to put it simply, to retain new players this needs to stop

They dont bother me as i dont bother about isk or killboards, it is just a prime example of how a new player who does not know anything is introduced to eve, luckily for me it was a alt an not a actually "new player" experience, if it was a new player experience i'd a just lol'd an been thankfull for the trial

They are not manageable, ...

If you are so much into pvp why are you hiding in hi-sec and avoiding other like minded individuals.

Hmm. The only place I see succeed written is in your response.

Whatever floats your boat.

Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?

What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable?

If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.

You can't undock a wardecced toon without instantly popping up on someone's watchlist, assuming your dockup station doesn't already have a neutral scout babysitting. Even then the cycle of watchlist ping > locator agent > neutral eyes pinpoint target > gank proteus vs tech 1 barge or BC takes all of 15 minutes assuming they aren't missioning in Outer Mongolia.

I agree there's alot of people running corps who aren't up to it but that's not gonna change unless corp startup requirements do.

It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.

Somebody in your corp does play with a half dozen alts to make it "manageable", so you can ask him, and thank him for leeching off his efforts.

As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:

1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.

#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.

In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps.

Forcing them to move to a Player Corp will not miraculously transform them into EVE fans - you will be just be lumbering Player corps with a batch of uncommitted whiny players who will eventually quit anyway becasue the game does not actually suit them.

ICBM launch

Because wardecs.

These mechanics are revolutionizing the MMO scene, attracting many new players and keeping others active.
Many future MMOs will have it, they're the epitome of sandbox gaming.

By the way, have CCP ever posted the detailed stats on accounts that weren't renewed? With info on account age and corp history for each? Or is this based on a passing comment in a blog or something along the lines of "most players who've let account subs lapse were in NPC corps at the time" without further detail? I don't recall the actual data being shown, just hearsay.

Or we keep the current philosophy, and accept that 10% of new players will be all Eve ever keeps.

Oddly, CCP says they cannot verify that griefing drives away players, then make a change to the game designed to reduce griefing, all in the name of player retention!

I speaking of the friendly fire switch corps now have. CCP's reasoning: New players join a corp, and get shot for their trouble. They go back to an NPC corp. Other new players hear about this, and decide to not join a corp at all. They stay in an NPC corp, and eventually leave the game. CCP decides to add the friendly fire switch to help this situation, to help keep these players.

I see it as a place for sharing information and ideas.

Yeah..but it's not, is it?

NPC corp miners getting ganked all the time. Haulers in NPC corps getting ganked all the time.

Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream.

This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.

I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.

What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players?

Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.

My point is to let the NPC members post their reasoning not divert the thread into a debate over wardecs. Because, at least for me, the major motive is lack of social hierarchies.

The only overwhelmingly boring thing in eve is combat pvp. Throwing anyone below 105 million SP into it will make him quit not in 3 months, but instantly.

You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.

You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.

There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.

Are we getting on topic now?

He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".

But I am against you lying to others. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but as far as lies go, telling people they are not useless against SP wall in combat PvP of eve online is a lie, which I will keep pointing out.

It serves perfect purpose of providing you with easy targets or more juicy baits of people who believe your crap.

Players stay in Nov cops for one reason. CODE

Most of the people crying about NPC corps are highsec "pvp'ers" who feel they are being unfairly deprived of easy targets.
Most people who do their shooting in other areas of space against things not shittanked mining barges could care less about NPC corps.

No Eve is supposed to be a sandbox game.

You want to fight people... ...Grow a spine and start fighting people who can fight back.

When you leave a player corp, do you always default back to your original NPC corp, even if you are -10 standing with that corp ?

So if your starter corp was CAS and then you joined a player corp and then you leave that player corp, you default back to which corporation ?

I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.

The two groups are quite different and I don't think encouraging one group to cross over to the other will be particularly successful.

I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.

Involvement with any number of engaged, knowledgeable players offering a constructive experience (not just blowing up newbie's first retriever or mission running brutix) is what will cut through the seemingly insurmountable challenges facing a new player.

None of those things are inherently part of the structure of player corps, either. They're part of the meta.

I would instead argue that is an issue with a lack of attrition being enforceable against bad player corps.

I would argue this has increased recruitment for ALL corps.

The whole point of my post was that you're just looking at NPC corps vs player corps and deciding NPC corps are the problem when in reality most highsec player corps are worse than NPC corps, no amount of raising the bar vis a vis corp creation requirements is going to change that, and in all cases it's the individual players that newbie interacts with that matter most.

Focusing on NPC corps as the root of all evil is just highsec pvp carebears wanting to force pve ships to play target while they continue to hide their neutral logi/scout/transport alts in NPC corps because tax rates don't affect those functions at all. Start talking about forcing those players to expose their alt minions supplementing their wardec toon to the same risk and I'll be more agreeable.

Former US Army infantry veteran with 2 tours to Iraq, combat life saver training, survivalist training, expert marksman with many weapon types, armed household, over 300 confirmed kills for my mortar platoon, and over 30 confirmed solo kills.

Vs
They guys you see at fanfest, who preach about pvp...


lol

Lets look at it this way.

There seem to be people that want to compare Eve to RL. So lets do a little comparison, seeing as how this comparison is valid, due to the Sandbox being modeled from RL.


In RL, you have your soldiers, police, medical, fire, corps that focus on combat, corps that focus on production, you even have those the profit from the death and/or loss of others.


In Eve, you have all of the same.

However, in both cases, much cannot exist without the others.


You can't have combat without people behind the lines producing and/or gathering materials.


Police are there to protect those that can't protect themselves.


There are also safer areas where people can prosper doing what you consider mundane, yet, their investment is just as important.



If you turned Eve into a PVP free universe, it would likely kill Eve.

I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.

So much for you data.

Actually what they want is a 20-30% NPC corp tax rate or one sufficient to make PvE without exposure to wardecs impossible. Basically, they want every player in highsec that is there with the goal of farming ISK to be open to attack. NPC alts of characters farming in other areas of space secured by their respective blob will be unaffected.

My in game play time is not a conclusion of CCP's analysis.

[quote=Scipio Artelius]Who is 'they'?"They" are in for a huge disappointment when myself and countless others just drop the npc corp to avoid the tax, and carry on as usual.

[quote=Scipio Artelius]Follies of collectivism aside it's not really productive to name and shame, but we've had claims that increasing the tax would provide incentive to player corps.

And as for that one, yeah, most recent example sure. We've had other participants in the thread claim higher numbers over the various incarnations of this conversation.

The only recent call I've seen was actually for 20%, was the one you saw different?

The issue with saying opinions are invented is that those written opinions can often be found with minimal effort.

It doesn't matter how much tank you fit on an exhumer, if you want them dead, they will die.
Same goes for a PVE boat. You know that their capability to fight back in PVP is non-existent, because doing so means they can't perform in PVE.

The other point was, if carebears did start fighting back, all these people complaining of making life harder for carebears would likely quit, as there life would get harder. They don't want food that fights back; otherwise, they'd be out in low/null/wh space.

Just because they want easy kills doesn't mean we should make it even easier.

I just found a comment from a CSM that I find pertinent to this conversation.


I'll highlight the most important part.

Maybe YOU should log in and play the game, then what the CSM member said might make a lot more sense.
EVE is not JUST a PVP game. There is no such thing as JUST a PVP game. PVP takes place within an environment (PVE), in the context of one's own abilities and the abilities of others (PVS).
Sumo wrestling is JUST a PVP game. Boxing is JUST a PVP game. Chess is JUST a PVP game. And, yet, the rules of sumo are that you lose if you leave the ENVIRONMENT (the ring) or touch part of the ENVIRONMENT (the ground) with something other than your feet, same with boxing. In chess, your pieces are differentiated by how they interact with the ENVIRONMENT (squares of the board). Even just the rule set governing play could be considered a part of the environment.

If YOUR core concept of EVE is that you must attack others all the time, should it be any wonder that some others don't want to play with you or subject themselves to mechanics that make them more vulnerable to such attacks?

Maybe I SHOULD read what the CSM member said:


Is that what we are referring to?

Affecting other players is not JUST destroying other players (or their arguments). Even player-versus-player scenarios do not necessarily result in any destruction at all. I think the misunderstanding is in the use of the term "PVP". Does it mean person-affecting-person or does it mean person-destroying-person?

Because that would tarnish their egos. Some people are so high and mighty, that playing the game in any other way than their own, is unspeakable.

I mean, PVP combat is the most imbalanced RvW aspect of Eve.
Why go to low to get kills when you can bump and gank a freighter for a loot dump?

You make all the claims of RvW but refuse to see how the rewards for PVP in high sec are significantly greater than in low.

In high sec, all you need is a cargo scanner and you'll know if ganking a freighter is worth it.
Whether based off cost efficiency, or based off potential drop.
I don't think any gank fleet would pass up a freighter filled with 2 bil in loot, let alone more.

...people often ignore or destroy wrecks before they take the risk of looting them.

the risks in high sec are well worth the potential reward.

Not to mention, you can wardec an easy target and not have to worry about another roam catching up with you.

All good points.
Now, explain to me why these people that do all the ganks and war decs aren't in low sec?
Too much of a challenge perhaps?

Again, this comment seems to agree that high sec PVP is plausible and working and balanced.
No need to change NPC corps, you can still kill those people.

Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.

Move along.

Assuming this to be true (which is a HUGE assumpion), the alternative is for them to move the experiences to where the players actually play the game.

So, the issue then becomes, why are players not joining corps, as opposed to why are players staying in NPC corps.

What reasons did the data identify, specifically, for players sticking with the game?
Which of those experiences do player-run corporations provide? Why those? Why not others? How could they be provided in NPC corporations? How could they be improved to advantage player-run corps?

I honestly just think you've had a little too much Kool-Aid. You are starting with the premise that player-corps are better than NPC corps, that player-corp players are better than NPC corp players (in some sense). What you don't seem to be accounting for is that every player starts out as an NPC corp player. The lines are blurred.

Compared to what ?

The responsibility of getting newbies more deeply involved with the game is primarily the responsibiliy of the newbies themselves. Why should the focus be on other people pushing new players to play? Why shouldn't the focus be on empowering new players to take matters into their own hands?

This idea of subordinating new players to more entrenched participants of the game might even be the problem.

You keep begging the question by saying that penalizing NPC corporation players or buffing player corp players is an attempt to fix a problem with player retention. Until you can prove that NPC corporations are the source of the problem, you can't prove that disrupting their function is a solution to that problem. I have yet to see a compelling piece of data that says that players are more likely to leave the game because staying in an NPC corporation is an option. I don't think there is such a piece of data and, unlike you, I don't think CCP thinks there is such a piece of data.

If you are having trouble keeping your own story straight, just imagine how confused I must be about what it is you are trying to say. In one post you're claiming player corps are better and that's why CCP needs to push players into them. In the next, you're denying having said that. You are telling us about supposed data that says NPC corp players quit more, then you are back tracking and pointing to a 90% attrition rate for new players as if that somehow has to do with NPC corp membership. I can't figure it out, either. But, I am not going on a wild goose chase looking for phantom data that makes your case for you. Find it yourself and provide a link to it or STFU about it.

Thank you. Was that really so hard?

The topic is NPC corporation members and their motivations for staying in NPC corporations, i.e. the topic IS people, primarily.

The topic is NPC corporation members and their motivations for staying in NPC corporations, i.e. the topic IS people, primarily.

There is no data that says more players quit EVE because NPC corporations exist.

Correlationnotcausation

...

Now, if only we could get some of these people to realize that nerfing NPC corps doesn't fix CCP's issue.

So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee.

Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts?

So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?

OK, link me to where that was stated.

The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.

That quote shows corps in a list of ways to be social, just like I said. That's not stating that those who join corps are retained more than those that don't, since people in NPC corps also use the market and contract systems and PvP. By "take a common sense approach" what you really mean is "make it up because that's what you want to be true". I'm sure if NPC corps were such a big hole in player retention CCP would have dealt with it long ago, so common sense tells us that NPC corps aren't all that bad.

I hadn't read CCP Punkturis's devblog on friendly fire before. I'm now disappointed that she associates not joining a player corp with missing out on many meaningful social interactions for many players. "Inevitably" no less! So inaccurate...

What do you expect a piranha to say ? Their perspective and goals are quite narrow

That's hugely against the rules, last I heard. As in, first offense, perma ban.

This means, pending corp applications can't be accepted while the applicant is in space?.

Can't rejoin a corp at war for 7 days.

My NPC corp provides a large part of the EVE experience and I'm having lots of fun this way. Might change in future, might not.

Low Sec, Null Sec , Wormhole space, is all by definition more dangerous than High Sec, if you are going there to fight it is a good idea to have a plan to replace your ship when you lose it. If you are going there to have a look around because you have not been there before then the same is even more so true. If you are part of alliance that dominates the territory so much that it is no longer dangerous for you that doesn't change the fact that it's natural state is more dangerous and probably still is for people that are not part of that alliance.

Dunno, I would say it depends on the corp, some corps are never going to be wardeced.. ever..
OK In Null you have no gate guns and station guns but if you are a high sec corp you might not even know what they do anyway.

People only wardec me because I post on the forum. don't post here and you are probably completely safe

i'd think most after 6 months know well they can be shot at no matter where they are.
i've met a few over the years that didn't get it. but most know better after a while.

oh i know, i've had to listen to more than a few of them over the years, ...

Also the assumption about people crying for HS to be made higher safety is now a bit of red herring.

Yeah, that's my point. People are always saying "how can we turn that 40% into more for the 10%". What I'm saying is "what did that 40% want to do that can be improved so they stay on their own terms". To me they came in wanting a diverse PvE experience, and they got the barely passable red crosses and rocks that is EVE PvE. Make EVE PvE more varied and group friendly and they will get what they came for and likely stay longer.

Say for example you run a soup shop, and you sell an amazing chicken soup. You also sell a tomato soup from a tin.
50% of your walk ins don;t fancy soup and leave.
40% come in for tomato soup, but don;t come back because it's terrible.
10% come for the chicken soup and love it, returning every day.

Why try to find ways to make the 40% love chicken soup when you could simply make your tomato soup better? You've already done the hard part of getting them in the store, Now you just need to help them enjoy what they came in for.

Does that not make sense?

]He said that they go into an isolated playstyle, yes, but specifically stating missionioning and mining, mostly missioning and he use words along the lines of "the classic thempark". The problem is that most PvE isn't a group activity. People are isolated because that's the way the PvE content is designed. Incursions are an exception but they are very elitist and generally dominated by multiboxers due to their ease of farming. IMHO, they need more earlier group PvE content to encourage people to play together (and prefereably ways for PvE corps to actually exist), it shouldn't constantly be about finding new ways to encourage them to get blown up since they just aren't interested in that. This new content all seems geared towards veteran players who already interact.

Yeah and I've seen it, both there and in person. The problem is that a lot of people try to use that as ammo against people who want more from PvE, the "carebears" if you will. they act like the 10% are people who love to run around ganking and murdering each other and the 40% are PvE carbears.

It doesn't matter the data is flawed in the first place due to multiple accounts per player. And, how does he know who is on fleet chat?

Have you used the NPE? All it does it give you pop up achievements whenever you do stuff and yet another list of things you may want to do. It's not a rich experience in itself and still requires a player to find their own content, and that's the problem, they don't.

No, but there's a clear idea of what type of gameplay people are looking for when they stumble into solo gameplay.

Multiple accounts can be in the same fleet. How does CCP know they are 80,000 unique new players?
Sub /= new player
new character /= new player

I mean the new NPE. and yes, he made that point, so they changed it, and it's still doing the exact same thing because it's not possible to force players to throw themselves into group content if that's not what they come for.

Of course there is! HE states what the majority of that 40% do. I don;t expect people show up, sub, then stay a few months missioning and what they were really looking for is shooting people in wormholes. They arrive expecting to be able to play some classic MMO gameplay with some "quests" and whatnot, and what they get is 30 or so missions that never ever ever change.

Of course it can. You may still wish not to believe it but that doesn't mean I can't cite that data as my reasoning. I'd find it very odd if 40% of new subs were doing PvE against their will.

Except if you look at their data and see what they arrive doing, then you look at the wider MMO community for what people do in other games and what people expect in an MMO, it's not a big jump to suggest that what they are arriving for is space-based questing. I'll continue to believe that until I see compelling evidence suggesting otherwise.

Actually I have the resources to do it...just not the data.

And I bet I'm not the only one who has access to lots of computing power.

But I get what you are saying. We either go with this data being TruthGäó or we just stop talking about it completely.

That is indeed your opinion. Ours seem to differ.

Clearly you are going to argue literally everything. Obviously you are right. Players come here seeking diverse and engaging social content, fall into PvE by accident, which happens to be very similar in style to other far more popular MMOs. They then stay trapped in that paying for a sub they don't actually want until they eventually leave.

blah...blah...

How do we help them out of that situation in a way that doesn't break the game?

#3 is redundant. CAS has proven that all of that can be done without player corp status.

CCP should be thinking of ways to enhance player corps in the first place.

Suggestions:

1. Clean up the corp name database so people can use "now defunct " corp names.

2. Extend missions to corps. Can use copr mission levels to scale with corp size . lvl 1 is 10 members, etc...

3. Remove wardecs, and add incursion/FW bonus and penalties for common corporate operations based on corporate standings.

4. Add a partial SOV mechanic to low sec.

5. More in-game events for null sec space.

Q. Why these suggestions are not essentially PVP focused?

A. CCP is still balancing ships, ore, sov mechanics, etc. These things can be implemented in game with far less financial cost to the devs, and far less re-balancing issues to PVP.

1. Yes! Support . . . CCP made NPC corps to help. Support them.

2. It's not that simple:
A) It's not my job to create content for others. Doing the work for others may even be counter-productive.
B) What if I don't WANT to create content for others?
C) What if I don't KNOW how to create content for others?
D) What if others don't WANT or KNOW how to create content for themselves or don't WANT me to create it for them?
E) I don't control anyone but myself. Trying to control others leads to abuse.
F) Some players are intentionally out to disrupt the creation of such a corp, if it is not a "PVP" corp or it is otherwise not conforming to what they think a corp should be.

3. You are essentially suggesting that NPC corps get buffed, if not by CCP then by the players themselves. Is that what you MEAN to say?

3Yes, CCP made Player Corps and they are a needed mechanic. They are still a social group, but most older Player Corp sitting players just treat them as a safe haven for their own activity rather than a group of people.

Of course it isn't your job. Even for many players in NPC Corps, they create rather than consume content from others. And they also aren't here whining that CCP and others should be doing more. They aren't here whining and complaining for nerfs to others play styles to suit their own self interests and they aren't here complaining that CCP is failing just because they are trying to make changes that will help.

Even those that don't often create content in NPC corps still regularly contribute to the social environment of the corp just by taking part in the activities that the Corp runs. Player Corp sitters rarely do the same.

No one is suggesting you try to control anyone other than yourself. Most Player Corp sitting complainers don't even do that though. Rather than take personal responsibility for things and try to offer what they can, it constantly comes back to externalising the problems as being CCPs fault, or some other player or groups fault. Never, what can they do to help other players. Only, what can they complain about that helps themselves.

You don't need buffs for players to get active. It just needs players to get active.

Jonah Gravenstein defending someone's honest character is like Bernie Madoff endorsing an investment product.

He's not being honest. He's being obtuse. We've already gone over two of those quotes. They don't say what he says they say.
If he wanted to be honest, he would have left that post unedited. It originally contained a statement by him essentially saying that his own words were "typical bullshit". I happened to agree with him on that point.

You're both liars.

I don't disagree with this, but the answer doesn't lie in kicking NPC corp players in the nuts. Players need to want to move out, not to be forced out.

Try typing something next time, pop comes right up.

The reason your PC count comes right up is becuase of the MOTD. It's considered to be a post. If you took down the MOTD, you wouldnt get a member count until you or someone posted in PC chat either. So...nothing special going on here.